Home » Precious Metals » Precious Metals: Just a Squiggle

Precious Metals: Just a Squiggle

by John Rubino on September 23, 2011 · 42 comments

Now this is a correction. In the space of three days gold is off 10% and silver 25%.

What’s happening? Two things:

First, you don’t get this kind of run without this kind of correction. When something soars, the number of people with huge embedded profits eventually reaches a tipping point where, for a while, selling necessarily overwhelms buying. So regardless of what’s happening in the world, gold running from $300 to $1,900 and silver from $4 to $49 would create exactly this kind of volatility.

Second, all the borrowing we did to stave off the 2008 debt crisis has created a new one, with Greece on the verge of default and the US in trillion-dollar-deficit gridlock — and a realization that the people nominally in charge have no idea what they’re doing. Where new plans to create jobs or lower long term interest rates used to be met with enthusiasm, they’re now being met with disdain. This is huge. In the space of a few months the dominant financial fear has shifted from inflation back to deflation.

In other words, it’s 2008 again, but with much bigger debt numbers. Which takes us back to precious metals: Notice on the chart below that gold got whacked the last time conditions were deflationary. Between early and late 2008 it lost about 25%.

Then recall how the world’s governments reacted back then and note that they’re all still armed with printing presses and terrified of upcoming elections. If a Greek default produces panic rather than relief, expect QE3 in the US and something similar in Europe, where the ECB is already becoming a clone of the US Fed:

ECB Policy Makers Signal Readiness to Act in October as Debt Woes Deepen

The European Central Bank may step up efforts to boost growth and ease financial-market tensions as early as next month, Governing Council members said.

Austria’s Ewald Nowotny and Belgium’s Luc Coene said in Washington that potential measures include the reintroduction of 12-month loans to banks. Asked if an interest-rate cut is warranted, Coene said while that wouldn’t help to bring down longer-term borrowing costs, “the ECB has never ruled out things beforehand.”

“If the data in early October shows that things are worse than we anticipated we will look at the kind of decisions we have to take for that,” he said in an interview late yesterday.

European policy makers are under pressure from counterparts around the globe as their failure to contain the region’s sovereign-debt crisis stokes concern the world is on the brink of another recession. Their comments come as European officials debate how to increase the size of their bailout fund to restore confidence in its firepower.

With money-market tensions increasing, the ECB has already reintroduced a six-month loan and continues to offer banks as much cash as they want at its benchmark rate in weekly, monthly and three-month refinancing operations. It last conducted a 12- month loan in December 2009.

“The ECB will probably discuss reintroducing a 12-month tender,” Nowotny told reporters in Washington today. “We could perfectly do that when we feel there is an urgent need for that — I don’t think so for the moment, but it could be in two weeks,” Coene said. The ECB council next convenes on Oct. 6.

Economists at Barclays Capital, JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Royal Bank of Scotland Plc predict the ECB will also be forced to reverse course on interest rates after raising them twice this year to curb inflation. The benchmark rate is currently 1.5 percent, compared with near-zero for the U.S. Federal Reserve and Bank of Japan, and the Bank of England’s 0.5 percent.

G-20 Pledge
Finance chiefs from the Group of 20 yesterday pledged a “strong and coordinated international response to address the renewed challenges facing the global economy.”

Many G-20 members pressed Europeans to follow through on a July plan to expand the powers of the region’s rescue fund, Japanese Finance Minister Jun Azumi told reporters.

European parliaments are focused on approving the July agreement to expand the scope of the 440 billion-euro ($594 billion) European Financial Stability Facility to allow it to buy the debt of stressed euro-area governments, aid troubled banks and offer credit lines. Its current role is to sell bonds to fund rescue loans for cash-strapped governments.

‘Problematic Discussions’
“We really, really hope that it will be up and running by mid-October, but you know yourself how problematic the discussions in some countries are,” Nowotny said. After legal ratification, it may take another six to eight weeks for the EFSF to start intervening, he added.

The ratification process has drawn fire from some investors for being protracted and failing to provide the fund with enough cash to prevent the crisis leaking beyond Greece. Curbing the scope of policy makers to do more is the suspicion taxpayers in AAA-rated countries such as Germany and Finland would balk at stumping up even more rescue cash.

That has fanned speculation Europe may eventually ratchet up the fund’s spending power, perhaps by using the bonds it sells as collateral to borrow more cash from the ECB. Another proposal is to mimic a U.S. program established following the 2008 collapse of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. by allowing the fund to offer the ECB credit protection for buying more sovereign bonds.

EFSF Firepower

“It is very important that we look at the possibility of leveraging the EFSF resources and funding to have a stronger impact and make it more effective,” European Union Monetary Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn said in Washington yesterday. French Finance Minister Francois Baroin said separately that policy makers “need the right firewall to prevent contagion” and can discuss giving the fund “the necessary strength.”

Weidmann has said he opposes turning the EFSF into a bank that can refinance itself at the ECB as it would amount to “monetizing state debt.” Coene also said he’s “not sure that will be a good idea.”

Coene signaled reluctance to step up the central bank’s government bond purchase program even after the IMF said Sept. 20 the ECB “must continue to intervene strongly” in European debt markets to “maintain orderly conditions.”

Some thoughts:
It’s impossible to overstate the panic that the world’s politicians and central bankers are experiencing. They have no idea what’s happening now that the magic power of easy money seems to have failed. And because easy money is all they know, they will absolutely, without the slightest doubt, double down in coming months, flooding the US and Europe with credit.

Ironically, Europe’s troubles actually make it easier for the US to keep easing, because credit creation depends on the willingness of the rest of the world to accept dollars. As long as dollars are in demand — as they are now, as capital flees the euro in favor of US Treasury bonds — the Fed can create more dollars and Washington can continue to issue more debt. Expect them to ramp it up big-time in the near future.

And politics doesn’t matter. The idea that president Mitt Romney or Rick Perry would accept a 1930s style depression in order to balance the budget is laughable. Faced with the prospect of becoming their generation’s Herbert Hoover, they’ll open the monetary floodgates just as certainly as would a second-term Barack Obama. In Germany, the recent bailouts may soon cost Chancellor Angela Merkel her job, but as a reader commented on a recent DollarCollapse article:

Merkel is effectively losing one election after another but she loses to the left. The German left is pro integration and pro bailouts. In this weekend elections in Berlin, the minority party of the current coalition, that can be compared to the tea party, lost even the 5% quorum to have a representation to congress. They campaigned against Europe.

In other words, the next generation of European leaders will be hired by voters sick of austerity and will therefore be even more favorably disposed to bailing out everyone in sight.

This is profoundly positive for precious metals. As stomach-churning as this correction seems, a decade from now it will look like just another squiggle in a long, steep uptrend.

  • Roger

    John,
    I really enjoy your web site and read daily..although mostly on the sidelines..this market is not for the faint of heart or the uneducated..I feel I am probably in both camps….reason for comment, yesterday Jon Nadler commented on Kitco that silver bullion had a 30% surplus against projected volumes…How can this be true? So many articles I have read say that silver supply is tight, but he is commenting the opposite arguing that silver is overpriced (or was overpriced at around $40)
    Thx
    Roger

    • paper is poverty

      I apologize for stepping in front of John with my comment. I just wanted to point out that Nadler is a well-known perma-bear on the precious metals. When I was first learning about PM’s he used to bother me too, until I realized that he’s not objective about gold and silver, he’s more of an activist against them. Perhaps it’s because he thinks as a trader and doesn’t consider the long-term fundamentals, such as the history of fiat currencies; he therefore doesn’t understand what’s happening. He seems to have looked at charts alone and concluded that “gold is in a bubble,” an idea thoroughly refuted by Eric King’s radio guests in recent weeks. A more cynical view is that the establishment media like to quote gold and silver bears, and Nadler simply gets the most press this way.

      • Roger

        Thank you for your reply.
        It seems counter-intuitive that a man who runs a precious metal web site / company would be a perma bear. But I feel the same as you in that he always seems to talk down PM prices, not up.
        I agree with the concept of failed fiat dollars, so where are you going to put your $$? Only seems to be a few places…Gold and Silver being 2 of them.
        I guess now is a good time to buy more.
        Thx again.
        Roger

    • Agent P

      Roger -

      Take a look back at Mr. Nadler’s prognostications about PM valuations during the past 3+ years. They’re all over the place – even video/audio interviews if you care to look them up. Mr. Nadler is very smart man, but he also has an obligation to keep Kitco ‘above the rabble’, as it were. Maintaining ultra-conservative guidance keeps Kitco from descending to the level of ‘Goldline’ for example – not that it means his prognostications are necessarily accurate – far from it, but it helps Kitco to maintain a position of credibility (in a large market sense) as opposed to becoming yet another late-night info-mercial in a sea of hype.

  • http://BrophyWorld.com Mark Brophy

    I agree that this is a great time to buy metals, so I bought silver today at 29.87 per ounce. There is no indication that Europe or the USA is going to cut budgets, nor is Japan going to reduce their debts, which are highest in the world. Fortunately, South America is a refuge from this widespread madness, especially Chile, the leading country in the region. I wrote in my blog about why people should consider Santiago, Chile as an emigration destination:
    http://brophyworld.com/move-to-santiago-chile/

  • mark h

    Hey John
    I hope your right…..I am all in… and China has my back
    mark

  • silver slutt

    Hey John—-I know you’re right. This “squiggle” thing really eats at my soul as this goes on. I try and remember what Bob Chapman of the International Forcaster constantly reminds everyone——-”Where else are you going to put your money? In devalued paper?” I just hope these bankster crooks won’t take silver to zero. Thanks for this insightful article—it helps calm me down a bit.

  • John

    And I thought the correction a few weeks abot was heavy; however, I’, still in. Nothing has changed except for the worse! It’s easy to stay long; although, today has been very interesting.

    The real question that requires some real backbone comes with; “how much to load up with today?” With Au at $1655 per oz and Ag at $31.01 and knowing what is coming down the road….will we ever see this day again.

    It was in July, 2007 when I told a friend that $700 gold would be gone by the end of the summer and never seen again. Are we now at the same point with $1700 Au?

  • boatman

    this is a war…….they have just won one battle.

  • brutlstrudl

    John, If your wrong, it means there was no place left to hide

  • http://ContraryInvestorsCafe Tekoa

    Great article John!

  • Frankin Rogers

    Hi,

    Really interesting article.

    I’m new to this whole buying precious metals thing and want to learn more about it. Could someone please recommend any trustworthy businesses from whom I can buy a small amount of gold and silver?

    Thanks,

    Franklin Rogers

    • reflector

      franklin,

      i highly recommend apmex.com, they are very organized and reliable.
      i’ve bought a lot from them and everything is 100% right every time

      i’ve heard tulving has lower margins but some people complain about dealing with them

      i’ve also heard very good things about gainesville coins but never used them personally

    • S. Petersen

      I second the rec’n of Apmex. You’re a step closer to sources with them, they’re excellent with shipping and their prices are always good.

    • john

      If you haven’t received a thousand opinions regarding investing in gold, I would be surprised. Let’s just say, from my prospective, it’s about “the gold” or silver. Not the coin or source; although pay attention to what dealers are willing to buy back pms for relative to the various sources. Au with a certificate is a good idea. Also, see it as savings and not an “investment” or speculation.

      Read the information that comes via Mr. Rubino and others. I’ve been at this for 6 years now, and I don’t read many or follow some as I did then. They (those that know) will tell you. Do your homework!
      Can’t offer any better advice. All the Best!

      john

    • Scott

      Sprott Money: “www.sprottmoney.com”

  • http://Wheretobuy? Dave

    Franklin,
    If you live in the States you might consider North West Territorial Mint in Auburn, WA. They have a nice website. I found them to have pretty good prices especially on lower premium bullion, which is the best way to go in my opinion. Lots of place you could go, just shop around and compare prices, but there are some shady operators out there so go with a reputable and established outfit. Get familiar with pricing and premiums on various products so you know when to move on if someone is gouging.

    • expatriot

      I wouldn’t use them if you want silver eagles. For one thing northwest mint was sued by the washington state attorney general and lost. It was all over how long people had to wait, I think one guy waited 8 or 9 months. I didn’t know any of this and traded some gold for silver eagles. They are required by law now to get you your metal within three months. They got me my silver 2 months and thirty days later. I was worried sick the whole time. Jason Hommel says their bankrupt. By the way they’re not in auburn anymore they’re in federal way. When I used to buy gold they were great though.

  • Bruce C.

    Unless the majority of the investors that compose the financial markets today are short-term traders only, I don’t understand why there would be a sell off in equities or precious-metals/commodities because of a fear of deflation.

    All through the 20th century the stock market was considered forward-looking and priced in conditions that it anticipated a good 6 months in advance. “Our” ancestors, therefore, would have reacted very differently to gentle Ben’s lame “Operation Twist” and the feckless incompetence of the President and the Congress. They would have anticipated the panic of the PIIGS’s inevitable defaults and the ensuing unfettered global debt monetizations that JR alludes to, and thus bought both stocks and gold/silver with a greedy vengeance so as not to be left behind. They would have remembered that deflation is Ben’s Moby Dick and will do anything to defeat it. So what if the markets soar? Ben and his cronies don’t need a crashing stock market to gain the political cover for more QE. A crashing bond market would be ten times more sufficient.

    Instead we have the opposite state of affairs so I’m not so sure QE 3 is all that imminent. Ben may have tricked the lemmings. All that money from the stock market can now fund our deficit AND European and Japanese pensions.

    I don’t see why gold and silver prices are going to rise any time soon. The very same reasons that gold/silver was worth what they were a week ago still exist, so why did their prices change? Just a random sell-off to fit the Bell curve? Doubt it, but here are some other possibilities:

    - Gold and silver are still being treated as ordinary commodities, not currencies, and especially not ultimate/reserve currencies. This would be a surprise to me if true because the prices of gold and silver had held firm or even rose during the stock market sell-offs of the last year or so, and that seemed to be the reason. Something may have been different this time.

    - Another possibility is that most of the activity in the metals markets must still be in short-term “paper” or psuedo-paper equivalents (e.g., fungible metal bought and temporarily stored for trading purposes.) In my opinion, investors who hold physical metal would never have sold under these circumstances.

    - A new, orchestrated take down in gold and silver occurred (which may have actually triggered the stock sell off). Assuming that the reports from some of the guests at King World News are true (Dan Norcini, for example), there were supposed to be massive “buy orders” in place by Asian/Chinese “investors” right below $1,800 that was effectively acting as an impenetrable floor in price and thus an insatiable vacuum of demand, taking huge amounts of gold off the market and thwarting the Western central banks’ attempts to plunge the gold price. That didn’t happen as described, so we may soon learn about a new more concerted attempt to distort the precious metals markets.

    • paper is poverty

      I think the main thing going on is a liquidity crisis in Europe. Everything is being liquidated by EU banking and finance as they scramble for cash. It doesn’t matter what the longer-term fundamentals are for an asset; in a panic nobody is thinking longer term. Gold and silver get sold off like everything else, but it’s no indication of their value– as you said, nothing fundamental has changed. But I don’t think the banks can sell the junk assets they have, as nobody wants to admit what they’re really worth– the banks just want to keep the crap on their books at some imaginary value. So in fact, they may be forced to sell precisely those things which have the most value (and which still had decent YTD profits when the scramble started), which includes gold and silver.

      I think you’re right that physical holders of metal are probably not selling. People don’t take their coins to the shop when the price has just plunged. When silver went below $10 in 2008, you couldn’t buy it for anything like that at coin shops. The premiums became huge, I think something like $5 or $6 an ounce at one point, because the physical stuff dried up… everyone wanted to buy, nobody wanted to sell. The spot / paper market was totally disconnected from what was actually happening in the physical retail market. Probably something similar is shaping up now.

      And given that the CME hiked margin requirements for the metals, and we have Comex options expiry in 2 or 3 days, I’m sure there was an orchestrated piece of this too.

  • jeff pitman

    Nadler is a perma bear on metals. I was reading him when he was saying gold wouldn’t break $600/oz and silver $12.00.

  • Brad Thrasher

    Spot on JR. All of the macro conditions that caused the price of gold to rise not only remain in place but are enhanced and embellished by the continued offerings of more and more paper debt.

    Gold dipped because (1) a majority of Euro’s see USD’s as the safe haven of last resort, (2) short term profit taking, and (3) central bank sell offs most notably Greece.

    Gold hovering above $1,650. may well be the single best buying opportunity of this decade. Any more short term dips only enhances the macro dynamic and eventual spring back.

    The sidebar story is also one JR has nailed in the past but didn’t this time out, perhaps for redundancy sake? The message is “Bail the Banks” while Greece goes to hell in a hand basket. Quite a LEAP, no?

  • Tony D

    Gold and silver on sale. This is an incredible opportunity.
    As soon as more money printing occurs, particularly in the US, PM prices have only one way to go and the moves could be huge.
    The price action right now reminds me of the price action in 2008 where all assets except bonds fell as one due to margin calls across various asset classes. PM prices are falling as people rush the “safety” of the US$. This is a short term liquidation event as traders try to protect capital.
    Its a great time to be contrarian, the big picture hasn’t changed, as John indicates. Only the strong will survive to reap the rewards that PMs will eventually provide. The masses will head for the exits(PMs) all at once and there will be panic. The possible huge gains that are available to PM owners won’t come easily, we’ll have to overcome fear, doubt, derision and our herd instincts and large attacks on the price, but in the end the markets will prevail.
    Great article, John. Thank you.

  • ShawnB

    Why has no one mentioned the margins were raised? This happened a few months ago, a few times the margins were raised but the price rebounded fairly quickly. I feel this is the same situation. Now more weak paper hands have left the market and stronger hands will step in. Hold physical and don’t let the dollar come into play in any decisions you make. Margins can only be raised one more time and the comex will be out of bullets. Hold on for the ride of your life boys!

  • ViveElOro

    For those who haven’t connected the dots yet, Operation Twist *IS* QE3, or at least a significant portion of it.

    This PM sell-off was completely ORCHESTRATED and like ALL U.S. government financial interventions, it’ll quickly BACKFIRE and ultimately drive PM prices even HIGHER!

    BUY THE DIPS!!!!

  • tomt

    It appears BB’s Operation Twist (combined with a orchestrated sell off by the big shorts) has had the desired effect of initiating an acceleration in the run to dollars. BB, Wall St., and the US Treasury thank you for your participation in this successful shift. Obama is probably being promised a spring repeat of ’09, even though the ranks of lemmings following BB and Wall St. wizards is thinning. They have every reason to expect new waves of foreign lemmings will fill the vacated seats at the poker tables especially from across the Atlantic. The charts strongly suggest we are experiencing a repeat of ’08
    so consider if we are going to be a victims this time, or be more proactive, engaging in downside hedging, and being very choosy about collecting falling knives. Speculating on currencies seems all to easy this past week, but keep in mind that papering over the headline fears still evokes powerful market responses.
    Q3 earnings for GDX will be good enough to keep some stocks in good position, but GDXJ offers fewer of these profitable producer supports, and will lag.
    This biggest blow to the metals has been the loss of positive sentiment, and the longer the PM’s are hammered the longer we may have to wait for bullish sentiment to return. My guess is a rebound from oversold will occur in a few days good for ~$100 in gold, followed by another trip to the basement. This,
    if it occurs, may be driven by the covering of short positions in tranches, and might well repeat especially in Silver with its exceptionally large net short tally.

  • http://dollarcollapes kennyg

    Our government is scandiless, who knows what blanted scullduggery they will come with next in there obvious plans to financially destroy the whats left of the middle-class.

  • g. Koates

    Want a real rush,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Read The Case for Gold ( A Minority Report of the U.S. Gold Commission. 2nd Edition by Ron Paul.

  • Agent P

    If you have noticed, every time we head into another cyclical downturn during this secular bear market, the awareness of precious metals-as-money increases with every move. Herein lies the answer to questions posed regarding PM washouts during cyclical downdrafts. The simple fact is that with every move, confidence in fiat currency fades a notch or two, and government’s power to influence the markets, erodes.

    This continuation of events keeps rolling on until a critical mass is achieved (lack of confidence.) It is at this critical juncture that measured, methodical governmental interventions lose their effectiveness and the psychology of crowds takes over. You will also notice that these cyclical moves seems to be compressing into shorter & shorter time frames. This is due in no small part to the knowledge already gained by previous interventions, and the foreknowledge of what governments will do (again & again) going forward. ‘Pricing in’ is beginning to take on new meaning. This is a dangerous game between manipulated, algorithm-run markets and government manipulations to keep the edifice standing, while the feet of clay disintegrate under the weight of all the debt and deceit.

    At this stage, all one can do is prepare accordingly.

  • mike

    …if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen and it seems that many speculators/investors/traders are doing just that, …would you like a menu? try USD….would you make a reservation? try a US treasury….but remember…the kitchen is where the food is….

  • Pete

    Days like today are good days to reflect on the fact that the perma-bulls don’t know what the h*** they’re talking about. I started getting into silver in 2006. Reading Ted Butler, I was convinced the price would be $100 by now. Last Spring, Bill Murphy was saying the end of the gold cartel price suppression was “immenent.” James Turk called $35 for a silver high in 2008, and recently predicted $60 silver by the end of this month (Many of Turks predictions have been wildly off the mark, but no one ever calls him out). Bix Weir was sure we’d be back on a precious metals standard by the end of 2010. All wrong, with no apologies. If their huge price predictions don’t come true, just blame it on the Comex paper traders, right? Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

    I’ve read countless hyperinflation articles at this website that kept me up at night, and scared me so s***less I was afraid to invest in anything other than mining stocks, bullion, canned food, ammo, etc. For five years, I’ve been living groundhog day over, and over and over. Every day ends and morning begins with a market quote at kitco.com. There’s always some new event, “just around the corner” that is going to send silver to the moon and gold to the stratosphere. You remember: Options expiration, China buying, India buying, tungsten gold bars, concentrated short positions, secret m-3 money supply, phony ETF’s, 600 trillion dollars in derivatives, New chinese metals exchange, Venezuala demands 99 tons of gold from Bank of England, Fed Meeting, G-7 meeting, PIGS defaulting, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

    Any new silver investors, be warned: Take all of this currency crisis, precious metals, and mining stock perma-bull (mis)info with a shovel full of salt. Sure, the price may explode someday, but the short term forecasts are about as accurate as ten-day weather forecasts. Sure, the metals have definitely done very well as an investment in the past decade (mining stocks have been pathetic).

    Don’t buy in to the “get rich quick, currency crisis” thesis like I did. Remember that James Turk, Eric King, Ted Butler, John Rubino, Eric Sprott, Bix Weir, Jim Willie, Peter Schiff, Bob Chapman, and Bill Murphy are all nice, honest men, but they all make a lot of money selling precious metals and/or investment products, selling advertising on websites like this, and/or paid newsletter memberships to scared contrarians like you and me. THEY SELL FEAR. The more scared we are, the more money they make, period. They tell us what we want to hear, because they know that if they’re wrong, we’ll just blame someone else for manipulating the market. Forgive me, but I feel emotionally manipulated. I’ve read VOLUMES of articles, and listened to literally hundreds of hours of interviews and predictions since 2006. I wish I had my time back.

    Mish recently called the top on silver, and so did John Maudlin. Unfortunately, I never followed their work because I was too busy listening to perma-bull, secret-silver-trading-source bulls*** on kingworldnews, and Korelin Economics Report, where no one saw any of this coming.

    • paper is poverty

      Yes, it’s amazing how the central planners have been able to stave off the inevitable disaster for far longer than most informed people would have imagined. But it hardly follows that anyone sounding a warning is just “selling fear”.

      You gave a list of reasons why the metals were supposed to move higher as if it was all so much BS. But some of those (China buying, India buying, etc) are indeed reasons why the metals moved higher. I grant you that James Turk tends to be too early in his price predictions, but then, Ben Davies called the pullback in silver from near $50 when he was on King World News, and Jim Rickards predicted the pullback in gold from $1900 to $1700. And Jesse over at Jesse’s Cafe Americain has given his price targets with the caveat “…barring a liquidation sell-off,” which is exactly what’s been happening these last several days.

      I share your frustration that this economic train wreck is taking a hell of a long time to play out. But at least you know what’s going to happen eventually and you’ve made some preparations.

      • Pete

        Yes, Davies called the silver pullback, but what was his recent gold forecast? Was it $2,000 by end of September? Will Eric King ever mention this in an interview? No. So a first-time listener tuning in this afternoon to KINGWORLDNEWS will give far more respect to the guest than he deserves, and presume he’s an expert authority with accurate forecasting skills. In fact, the guest may not be accurate at all, and may even have an horrendous track record. I think that’s what happened to me.

        Look: I sold a profitable business in 2007 because I was convinced by a bunch of fear mongers that hyperinflation was right around the corner. James Turk was one of these alarmists (More recently, he said he was convinced we’d see clear signs of hyperinflation- BY THE END OF 2010!). I completely stopped any speculative business ventures (which I’d done fairly successfully for years) because I was convinced I would wake up any day to worthless money, rioting, martial law, government price fixing, shortages, and total chaos, like Weimar Germany. The guy who bought my business never heard of any of this s***, and has continued to make money while I descended into my mental doomsday bunker to wait for the crash that never came.

        I have learned my lesson. I’m still long the metals, but I feel horrible for people coming across this info for the first time. I hope no one is as gullible and trusting as I was. I cannot blame anyone else for my decisions, but I do feel I have the right and the DUTY to point out that many of these “experts” don’t know what the F*** they’re talking about.

        • paper is poverty

          My intention was to show that these guys are not dogmatically one-sided.

          It’s not the crash that never came, but the crash that hasn’t come yet. Unless you think that “it’s different this time” and history is no guide.

          I can only imagine your frustration, but we have yet to see how this is all going to play out. I thought hyperinflation was right around the corner in 2007 / early 2008 myself, and bought hundreds of pounds of wheat and a bunch of equipment. I’m not sorry to have it. Come hell or high water, my family won’t starve. And frankly, if I hadn’t been scared I wouldn’t have bought metals, and I’m certainly glad I did.

          While it’s damning with faint praise to point this out, the gold guys have certainly had better advice than the “experts” on CNBC or other mainstream media. But yeah, short-term forecasting seems to be extraordinarily hard to do well, and I guess people assume we all know that, but there are a lot of newcomers who don’t. I didn’t either.

    • mangrove

      Pete,

      I share your frustration and appreciate your well reasoned thoughts about feeling manipulated by those who make these overly optimistic predictions about the price of PMs. I could have written exactly what you wrote, in fact — it so closely mirrors my experience and feelings.

      Unfortunately, I think the people profiting off of selling gold are undermining their credibility with their pollyanna optimism. Why didn’t even one of the big PM pushers see the current correction coming, especially to the degree with which it is happening? If they’re going to get our trust back, they’re going to need to do some much more balanced and cautious dot connecting. Of course, nobody can know exactly what’s going to happen, but the possibility of the current correction surely existed — so why didn’t they warn us of that, even if they didn’t think it was the more likely scenario?

      Looking through the various financial sites I visit, I did find one naysayer in this sea of precious metals euphoria: Chris Vermeulen, who actually did expect this drop — http://www.safehaven.com/article/22669/gold-and-silver-pullback-as-forecasted-now-for-the-big-opportunity-part-2

      I don’t follow Vermeulen, so I don’t know his track record, but perhaps I’ll start paying more attention to him, rather than all the cheerleaders you mentioned. Their biases are really beginning to show, IMO.

      Personally, I’m not invested in PMs for short-term trading, so none of this volatility has hurt me…. BUT, I need to keep an eye out for the inevitable TOP in gold (which I do believe is a long way off) so I can get out before the bubble pops. Finding good people with a very reliable track record for guidance purposes is becoming increasingly difficult.

      I believe that the money masters are in a war with gold too — I don’t think many would argue with that. And yet, few are sending out warnings of what this war could entail as gold rises and the dollar collapses. What are the REAL risks that owners of gold face? I don’t think the current crop of gold optimists want to talk about these dirty little secrets. And surely, those risks are as real as the current correction that wasn’t forecast.

      Maybe these people, who we’ve been putting too much faith in, will learn from all this. So the current correction is “Just a Squiggle” eh? Probably true, probably. But their credibility has taken a big hit, so I’m going to be a whole lot more cautious from here on out. Buyer beware.

      Thanks again for saying it like it is. Good luck.

  • Golden Guy

    You only have to look at gold and silver blogs to know that gold is a bubble, driven by good old greed, not reason. That’s not to say it won’t keep rising if enough people believe it, but this crash will shake a lot of investors out of the gold tree. That won’t stop the gold apostles. You know the ones, they use phrases like “fiat currencies” and “financial apocalype”. Many of them are doomsdayers, predicting the end of the world, blaming it all on Obama, or taxes or welfare or the global warming conspiracy, but as sure as night follows day, Exodus follow Genesis, armageddon follows debt, gold will rise up from ashes to heaven. Hallelujah!

    I’m out of gold, taken my profits and run. I’m looking for safer investments right now.

    • BK

      Silver and Gold aren’t the same – Gold has been backing Money and REAL Money forever. Silver has gone in and out of style as Money and has Industrial uses. Silver is WAY more volatile than Gold and more common than Gold. – to compare the correction or popping of the Silver bubble to the correction that has recently occurred in Gold is folly. Of course, I may wake tomorrow to discover that Gold has broken through $1400 – but, I doubt it.

      Every solution to Economic every economic crisis brings on the creation of Money through Debt to solve the crisis.

      Look at the plan that is being considered to bail out Europe…..papering over problems. Don’t put all your Money in Gold – but, have 20%-30% in order to preserve purchasing power. For the last few days the price of gold is signaling that people believe Deflation is a threat. I doubt deflation will occur there isn’t a Modern Government on earth that can stand falling Asset prices = Lower Tax Receipts = Austerity. Voters hate Austerity – and they like Politicians to spend…spend spend….and the current source of money for most Governments is the Printing press.

  • Dave Ziffer

    Very interesting comments on this blog. Here are my 2c:

    To “expatriot”: I have seen no evidence anywhere that Northwest Territorial Mint is bankrupt. This appears to be some completely unfounded rumor started by disgruntled customers who are annoyed at the understandably long lead times that NWTM was experiencing with the tremendous demand for PM. Probably their lead time has dropped somewhat during this blip. I find NWTM consistently has the lowest margins on the web, and so I am highly inclined to use them. I suspect that if the day comes when you will need to use your silver rounds as currency, the proprietary logos on their private-mint coins (such as the Pan American pick) will become even more widely recognized than coins from the US Mint, and furthermore I expect that the very high premium that all vendors charge on US Mint coins (and that you will have paid if you bought them) will vaporize as people become more attuned to the idea that ALL coins in a metals-based currency system are worth only slightly more than their melt values.

    To “Scott”: you were pretty brief there with your reference to Sprott. I researched gold and silver ETFs for almost a year and couldn’t get comfortable enough to buy any of them until I found Sprott’s PHYS (gold) and PSLV (silver) ones. Sprott is totally dedicated to the long position in both metals and so has no competing motivations (as other very large unnamed ETF custodians might) to manipulate the price of his own ETFs downward. Sprott is in Canada and his ETFs are audited to ensure that they actually have all the metal that their ETFs claim to represent. More importantly, Sprott is fanatical about ensuring that the purity of the held metal is verified and that the metal is always “unencumbered”, i.e. it is never lent out or used as collateral. The whole point here is to eliminate all counterparty risk.

    To “Pete”: You seem to have fallen victim to short-term thinking. Never think short-term and never listen to people who are talking short-term because they are at best clueless. Understand the long-term fundamentals and you will know where the prices of metals are going. Do not imagine that you are going to get rich holding metals – keep to the idea that they will, in the very long term, merely preserve your purchasing power. So if silver some day is selling at $1M per ounce, it will be because on that day $1M will buy about what $35 buys today.

    My strategy for investments is to hold multiple asset classes that move somewhat independently and then to balance my portfolio periodically, selling higher-priced assets to buy lower-priced assets. By taking advantage of the out-of-phase swings of the various classes, you can make money without knowing the future. Earlier this year I sold some high-priced mutual funds, generating cash (which for obvious reasons I hate to keep around). I wanted to convert this cash into Sprott PSLV so I placed a limit order for a price that was a bit lower than its asking price at the time, thinking PSLV would soon dip below that price. Then I watched all summer as PSLV climbed from 16 to 17 to 18 to 19 and I was beginning to get antsy, thinking I’d never see PSLV at my limit price again. Guess what? It’s now below that price (and yes my trade triggered – and I would have done even more nicely if I’d left my limit order at its original low price rather than the higher price I had set later in the summer due to my impatience). The lesson: think long-term only, adopt a rational strategy (like portfolio balancing of multiple asset classes) and be patient. Eventually your well-though-out trade will trigger.

  • Ken

    My guess is all the big investers in gold have cashed out a month or so ago leaving small investers that bought up the ladder in a pile of do-do. Look for support around 1500.00. These metals can only be so expensive and right now there screaming high. its a sell

  • Pete

    To Dave Ziffer:

    I fell victim to listening to bullsh** forecasts from James Turk, Ted Butler, Jason Hommel, Roger Weigand, Eric Sprott, and guys like them. They were almost totally wrong, yet never apologize, and keep cranking out more predictions, even as we speak. Butler sells newsletter subscriptions for $299 per year, and I bet he has thousands of subscribers. Do the math. Turk sell gold money accounts, and makes a percentage, like a storage fee. He claims to have over a billion dollars in goldmoney accounts. If we werent scared, they’d be out of business. They have a vested interest in being fear-mongering perma-bulls. That was my only point, and I truly hope my experiences prevent anyone else from repeating my mistakes.

    I am definitely long term about metals, so I don’t know where you got the idea that I’m short-term. I fell into apocolyptic thinking due to nonsense hyperinflation predictions, and “immenent” silver short-squeeze analysis. I made horrible decisions in my life as a result. I don’t blame anyone but myself for making a complete ass out of myself for the past 5 years. However, I believe it is my right and my duty to warn as many people as possible that James Turk and Ted Butler don’t know what they’re talking about.

    Remember, THEY made the short term predictions, not me. My mistake was trusting their so-called technical and fundamental analysis.

    John Rubino has made his share of bad calls as well. If you don’t believe me, track down some old episodes of Howestreet.com radio.

  • Dave Ziffer

    Pete: I’d be interested in any references you have regarding short-term predictions by Eric Sprott. I myself have never heard him speak in terms of less than a decade. Thanks!

  • Pete

    Dear Dave Ziffer:

    Listen to Kingworldnews interview with Eric Sprott from Tuesday, April 5th, 2011. He says he knew that after silver broke through $24 that it would hit $50 within 4 to 6 months. In later kingworldnews interviews he retrospectively bragged that this short-term, prescient $50 call had been a “no-brainer.” Sounds like less than a five year prediction.

    In a more recent interview with James Turk (posted at GATA.org) Sprott praised Turk as an excellent market forecaster. As I pointed out, Turk predicted $35 silver by year end in 2008, and “undeniable” signs of hyperinflation by the end of 2010. Reminds me of the old hyped-up “news” interviews about tech stocks in the late nineties.

    Anyway, you’re missing the original point: These perma-bulls make predictions without ever being called out for being wrong. They have a clear, vested interest in being perma-bulls because they sell gold and silver related products and services. People need to understand this, just like we should have understood that a stock rating in the 1998 tech boom dropping from “strong buy” to “hold” really meant “sell and run as fast as you F***ing CAN!”

    I made bad decisions because I believed them. I take full responsibility for my own foolish actions. However, now I know better, and I hope I can stop others from believing everything these guys say.


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