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“Everybody in the Industry Knows the U.S. Doesn’t Have the Gold”

by John Rubino on January 31, 2013 · 47 comments

In this week’s talk with National Numismatics’ Tom Cloud, he explains why Germany’s gold repatriation is just the beginning, the US Mint’s silver shortage will continue, and the big money is right about precious metals.

DollarCollapse: Hi Tom. It’s been an eventful few weeks in precious metals, though you wouldn’t know from the price action alone. Hit the high points for us.

Tom Cloud: Germany’s gold repatriation is obviously a game changer. They got all their gold back from France right away. But the US government put them off for 7 years, probably by offering them some kind of premium to take their gold back slowly. More gold, Treasuries, no one knows what exactly but clearly it was a big inducement. It’s also clear that Germany won’t be the last country to bring its gold home. The Netherlands is next and then probably Switzerland. It’s become a game of musical chairs. No one wants to be caught when the music stops. And make no mistake, it will stop. Everybody in the industry knows the US doesn’t have the gold and can’t deliver it. They’ve leased it all out.

It’s important to understand that there are two big stashes of gold in the US. Fort Knox supposedly holds the gold that belongs to us. And the New York Fed holds gold that has been deposited by other countries for safe keeping. That’s where Germany’s gold would be if the US hadn’t leased it out.

DC: Then there’s the US Mint running out of silver eagles.

TC: They sold out in the first three weeks of the year and had to stop taking orders. They’ve since started back up but demand is immense [editor’s note: silver eagle sales are now running at roughly 5 times the December rate – see US Mint silver coin sales in January climb to a record ]. Premiums are way up on silver eagles since a lot of customers are willing to pay up for the most recognizable coin. Others are either waiting for the premiums to go down or are buying maple leafs or silver buffalo or philharmonics, which have lower premiums.

DC: I thought buffalos were US government coins. Why aren’t they selling out too?

TC: The gold buffalo is made by the US Mint but the silver buffalo is not. It’s made by a private mint, which we shouldn’t name because we they don’t need people calling them and bothering them. They’re doing great though.

DC: So who’s doing the buying now?

TC: Right now the big money is moving and the little money is not. The little guy is gonna wait till gold jumps over 1700 to start buying. We’ve been in this channel between 1600 and 1700 for a long time, but we’ll break out pretty soon. Then you’ll see everybody pile in.

DC: And what do your clients want to talk about?

TC: It seems almost funny for a gold guy to spend a third of his time answering questions about interest rates. But big gold buyers have a lot of bonds too. Everybody knows the top [in bonds] will be soon if we haven’t already seen it. Just like people get the gold stashes confused, people also get confused on interest rates because they read about “no interest rate increases till 2014”. But can you borrow money from the fed at zero percent? Not if you’re not a bank. Interest rates aren’t stable in the real world and have actually been edging up for a while. The rate on ten-year Treasuries is up from 1.6% to 2% lately. Very soon everyone will discover that the Fed can’t control this.

For more information or to place an order, call 800-247-2812 or email Tom Cloud at tgcloud@bellsouth.net. Mention DollarCollapse.com for free shipping and insurance.

  • silvertothemoon

    My thoughts exactly. .. that’s why I traded all my bills for bars.

  • Belladonna

    Seems like ‘big money’ would be more likely to buy bars than eagles.

    • baddog

      Not if they are planning to flip them to the small money once that starts piling in.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/SBGI5LDDVQYHVOXVQAFZSEYOVY BillH

        depends on if you want “in the system” (and taxable) big money, or a cashe of spendable emergency doubloons, like Swiss 20 frank coins, or 1 ducat coins, to get by in black market economy



  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Keith-Cossairt/1203480379 Keith Cossairt

    Johnson looted the gold to pay for the vietnam war. well…. undeclared conflict.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Daniel-Bennigans/100002896932063 Daniel Bennigan’s

    Interesting article. One thing is for sure, you don’t want to be the last one with the paper in your hands instead of the gold, silver, gasoline or any other TANGIBLE goods.
    Things of finite amounts (commodities in general) are the things with the value. Currency never has, nor will never hold any value. People misunderstand when they get their paychecks and cash it in. It is not the pile of CASH in your hands that has the value. Currency is merely a trade unit between two things of REAL VALUE. Hence, the work that you did for the week to get your paycheck, that is what has value. Then, the products you buy with the work you’ve done has the value. The CASH/CURRENCY merely is the facilitator between the two services or goods. This is why you don’t want to be the last one holding currency when it all starts to tumble, which it has.

  • Bruce C.

    If the US Fed/Treasury really doesn’t have enough gold on hand to satisfy repatriation requests then if there hasn’t been any top-down intentional price suppression schemes and “take downs” of the gold price so far then there sure will be now, big time.

    (Something to keep in mind about gold mining stocks too.)

    • PaperIsPoverty

      It seems to me that the US’ delaying tactics have already successfully managed the price in the short to medium term, since everyone seems to be going along with the fiction that 7 years is reasonable.

      Also, I don’t think they need to further ramp up price suppression if they have no intention of actually returning any gold. Jim Rickards (the Currency Wars guy) suggested that the US might need the European gold that’s in New York (however much is still there), in case of a currency crisis. He more or less said that Germany and the other EU nations are never getting their gold back.

      So, you could be right, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s just business as usual going forward.

      • Bruce C.

        You seem to be implying that because the price of gold hasn’t “gone ballistic” that “people” are okay with it taking 7 years to repatriate a small fraction of Germany’s gold. I can see that, but what about the overall absurdity: Why should it take 7 years to transport the equivalent of just a few armored tanks? It is the un-forthrightness that should be a concern, NOT because the price is “contained” or that gold is still considered irrelevant. In fact, if “it’s no big deal” then just send it. Either gold is not money any more and is just a relic, and the developing world (including Germany, evidently) needs to get on board with that, or it’s not. I think the answer is that most people are in a daze; I think we’re in another “bubble”, and everyone is under the spell of monetary stimulation. Don’t fight the Fed, be happy.

        The suspicion that the US has no intentions of returning the gold is independent of the “public” reaction to the repatriation time line. Once is an internal governmental dialogue and the other is a public perception of what’s going on. I just think most people are tuned out via central bank narcotic.

        • PaperIsPoverty

          I was judging the reaction by the gold price because it’s only those who follow gold and silver who know about this story, as far as I can tell.

          Agreed that people think the central banks can manage markets and extend this ridiculous “stability” indefinitely. It’s not a Pollyanna attitude, it’s more a defeatist one: The markets can stay irrational longer than… well, apparently forever. But there’s been a flurry of recent articles about our record levels of complacency, so maybe we’re due for a dose of reality soon.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/SBGI5LDDVQYHVOXVQAFZSEYOVY BillH

      yeah but its a tough market trick though, on one hand you drive down G price by shorting gold, but then you buy up 100’s of tons to make up the gold you “owe” which in turn drives up G price and destroys your short position. I suppose you can make head way by running a saw tooth market, taking it down, buying it up, taking it down,,etc….(maybe that’s whats going on?) If you just print the money to buy gold…the gold costs you nothing and your govt debts diminish as you kill the dollar (the cost is extracted from the little people’s savings expressed in more devalued dollars)

      • texaschris

        Unless you dig it up yourself, mine from anther country. Say… A certain 3rd world country in Africa that starts with M and ends with A*L*I*…

  • Jimmy H

    I’m sure the U.S. is hiding gold somewhere. The Fed knows that gold is the ultimate currency and they just don’t want to give up any power by giving it away , regardless of who rightly owns it. Just be sure to accumulate as much gold and especially silver as you can, while it’s blatantly manipulated down at these cheap prices.

    • bob

      Chocolate mountains. As far as the eye can see. Caves—Guarded.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/SBGI5LDDVQYHVOXVQAFZSEYOVY BillH

      wouldn’t it be cool if the Fed/Treas was printing up paper moola and secretly buying up 1000’s of tons of Gold and Silver………..nah they’re not that smart

      • texaschris

        Central Banks have been net buyers since 2008.

    • BC

      The US gave up our gold reserve once we went off the gold standard. We had to repay foreign governments. Then when the middle east agreed to trade oil in US dollars, we gave them gold and we based our US Dollars on the global oil trade.

  • zimmy

    Keep stackin’ ’em.

    Physical is king and the move up is going to be sudden, sharp, and huge.

    • texaschris

      And, if you can’t hear it go “ching ching” in your hand, you don’t own it.

  • im just a bill

    I would like to hear some theories of where the gold that the US and Fed wants us to think they have? Rothschilds basement? Aliens use it to power their ships? Seriously tho, where did it go?

    • hambone

      US went from 20k tons of gold in reserves in ’46 down to 8.5k when Nixon closed the convertibility of dollars to gold in ’71…where did all that gold go? Back to sovereigns. Any reason as the trade and budget deficits grew immense since ’71 that this wouldn’t continue behind the scenes?

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/SBGI5LDDVQYHVOXVQAFZSEYOVY BillH

        8k tons of USA gold is valued at $500Bil NOW,….but at 25k per oz , it will be 15x its current nominal value….OR ANOTHER WAY OF PUTTING IT: THOSE TREASURIES ARE SHRUNKEN (HA HA, SORRRRRY))

    • PaperIsPoverty

      You might have read the David Rockefeller quote, taken from his address to the Bilderberg group in 1991, as follows: “[T]he world is more sophisticated now and prepared to march towards a world government. The
      supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely
      preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries.”

      One guess, then, is that the gold moved out of central banks and into the private hands of “an intellectual elite and world bankers,” i.e. the uber-rich.

      I think, though, that more of it has moved from West to East than even people like the Rockefellers may realize. There’s apparently a very-long-term cycle (several centuries) where power shifts from East to West and back again. If this is the shift back to Eastern powers then that’s where the gold is going.

      • Charles Savoie

        Over several centuries, the British paid for Chinese trade goods in silver. The British, who are easily the most conspiratorial minds in history, devised the opium “trade” to get the silver back, which they mostly did, then most of the rest of it was sucked away by the Silver Purchase Act of 1934. How will the Anglo/Americans of The Pilgrims Society recover gold and silver that has again moved to the Far East, and also Russia? They are planning to cause a big war of Russia vs China after which they can go in and bring back the precious metals, they are scheming to lure China and Russia to meet in the Middle East in a battle over petro resources. Kissinger, what do you know about these plans, Pilgrim member that you are? Friends, this is the most dangerous organization in history with nothing in second place.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/SBGI5LDDVQYHVOXVQAFZSEYOVY BillH

      look east young man…look east. China, India, Vietnam, Korea, Singapore, Russia… folks from these places culturally and within living memory have learned to have physical trade metal to get you though when the papier disintegrates. The Govts of China, India have been building their Gold reserves to become the great economic trade power they believe is their destiny, building there own Ft Knox’s. Japan pension funds and savers are going to gold as well and the yen devalues and targets inflation as a goal. Europeans with money left are securing it in gold as well as

      • texaschris

        Meanwhile, we make war in Mali, home of the greatest proven gold reserves in the world.

        Total coincidence, Citizen. Nothing to see here. Back to work.

  • Thats_just_crazy_talk

    Give me a $1000 dollars and let me hold it in my safe for you. Oh you want it back? No problem, I can deliver it in 7 years; it takes that long to walk to and from my safe plus all the paper work involved like counting the cash 😀

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  • http://profile.yahoo.com/SBGI5LDDVQYHVOXVQAFZSEYOVY BillH

    Whew! Tom done jes come out an’ said it real plain……”Them treasury boys is all hat an’ no cattle.”… like a mid-evil gold smith who put out 1000 notes of claim when he only has 100 bars left in the vault, their about to get hung.

    I think what we’ve seen in this last decade will be looked back upon in history as this curious time when the banker/political/accountant types almost succeeded in convincing the world that physical PM money was old fashioned and primitive (gold @ 250/ oz?,silver @ $5? lol), and that money was now to be just accounting units to be expanded or manipulated at will by the mysterious monetary authority hitting key strokes at the big computer………..I’m afraid a revolt is brewing against this monetary priesthood, we the people tire of the manipulators at the top who greedily, criminally siphon off too much, or just blatently take it (Corzone) those who have, with the stroke of their wand devalued your life savings and made themselves untouchable by prosecution. I am voting with my wallet, turning in my pile of “papiermarks” for “giltenmarks”. I want my savings in money that clinks, not virtual money and instruments of variable worth that are only electrons whizing in space, subject to vaporization or revaluation by a collective of criminals, fools and their henchmen.

  • PastorBobCeleste

    The us g0vt needs gold and it needs silver, expect confiscation as was done in the 30’s but for both.

    Until Born Again Washed in the Blood of the Lamb Christians start, and I do not for a minute believe they will, complying with the prophecy of 2 Chronicles 7:13&14 things are only going to get worse and worse.

    How can men and women that do not know how to humble themselves comply? How can a nation that doesn’t know what it’s wicked ways are turn from them?

    There will come a point where the us g0vt will push to far and then a revolution as the world has never seen will erupt, but, that is not what is important, what is important is that you know what’s coming and make preparations for your death.

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  • http://www.facebook.com/heidi.beirich.1 Heidi Beirich

    It’s the JEWS, stupid! Confiscate their property and send the bastards to Israel!

    • muckfexico2

      The bozo won’t do that, he needs the votes

    • texaschris


      (Srsly, can we find another scapegoat? This one’s tired out…)

  • http://www.facebook.com/DeliaLopezforcongress Delia Lopez ForCongress

    I seem to remember when Reagan was looking to restore the gold standard the “gold Commission” discovered the gold had gone to the FED as payment for the FRN’s. The gold was gone. Story is Clinton authorized the creation of a bunch of gold plated tungsten some of which turned up in a shipment from Ft. Knox to China a year or two back and they uncovered the paper trail. GATA had some info on it a while back. Throw in the negotiable bearer bonds from the 1934 bankruptcy of the US Gov and the lawsuit filed by the Dragon Family over the failure to return the gold as ordered to be done by Sept 12, 2001 supposedly was in the twin towers at the time of the collapse and the gold has still not been returned. The American people have been robbed by the bankers and the government we created to secure our rights has been complicit. When the musical chairs game is over we find out how much of “our” gold in Ft. Knox is gold plated tungsten. The debt is mathematically impossible for us to ever repay it. The Social Security ponzi scheme is already upside down, they stole the cash out of the trust fund during the Clinton regime that is how they balanced the budget. When all this is known, then what? Think the sheeple will do anything? How bad could it get here? Already 20% of the population is eating on food stamps. The middle class is almost gone. 41% of American workers make less than $20,000 per year. Those are the lucky ones that have a job. Five million fewer people have jobs today than in 2006 as the population has increased. Not a sign of economic recovery.

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  • Bruce C.

    After re-reading this interview I thought of a few questions.

    Maybe it’s just Tom Cloud’s style of speaking but what exactly does he mean by, “Everybody in the industry knows the US doesn’t have the gold and can’t deliver it. They’ve leased it all out.” Does he mean that that he has personal knowledge that the Fed has leased out its gold, and literally ALL of it at that? There is so much rumor and speculation going around that I think it’s important that he clarifies that.

    Similarly, he claims that, “Everybody knows the top [in bonds] will be soon if we haven’t already seen it.” I presume that “everybody” means the “big money” (though it’s hard for me to believe that wealthy bond owners don’t know the difference between the Fed funds rate and retail interest rates), but in any case I’d like to know what “everybody” attributes the rise in real-world interest rates to. If they believe rising interest rates (and therefore falling bond prices) are now the new trend then why would they be “rotating” their bond investments into gold rather than equities? Why do they think gold would do well in a rising (real) interest rate environment?

    I’m not suggesting that that’s a bad move but I don’t understand the logic, unless, “Very soon everyone will discover that the Fed can’t control this” means that the Fed will destroy the currency in the attempt to do so (i.e., an overdose of “money printing”).

    • Chris

      We are all curious about whether there is gold in Fort Knox. If the gold id there, then why not let it be audited. Maybe it is not there and that is why audit is not allowed. If the gold is there and they are all leased out, then if no audit is allowed to be conducted, then why not lease more than the actual amount of gold as nobody will know. This argument is to show that transparency is absolutely necessary.
      If Fed is buying bonds, then we can conclude that there are not enough buyers. At the moment, commodities prices are very high and oil price is getting closer to the previous peak. Interest rate is still at record low and QE is proceeding at top speed. The amount of spare cash sitting on the sideline could pump up inflation at the speed nobody could imagine. How is inflation going to be controlled. Quickly stop QE and at the same time increase interest rate? That would be cold turkey treatment. I do not know how things will pan out. The day when Greenspan took control of Fed, the system was already destabilised. All recessions should be allowed to go through the whole process of defaults to cleansed out debt and then Fed could come in and reflate the system. Instead no debt is cleansed off and Fed started reflating, with new debts adding on to old debts. In the bible, God had indicated that after 7 years, all debts shall be cancelled.
      The new treasury secretary should be someone not connected to the present group of people. He should be planning mitigation. The last recession would be a good guide to how the disaster will pan out and what action to take. I do not think there is enough money to reflate again.

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  • justice

    When Saddam Hussein started and planned to used gold currency for oil trading along with late Libyan president Gaddafi who also planned that if you want to buy our oil, you must have gold in exchange of it. And for such planned, other middle east nations like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, China and others are willing and agree to follow such move. One country opposed and disagree that idea to the fullest. That is the US Government. Why? Because they know very well that such move will be the collapse of US economy. What have US action to prevent that to happen? They accused Saddam Hussein with building chemical weapons of mass destruction. Pretty good huh? And they send secret agents to destabilized the Libyan Nation creating civil wars brainwashing and using Muslim neighborhoods to declare war against its government. They support and gave arms and ammunition to the rebels like what they did in Syria. Why US is so greedy? They wanted to own all the natural resources of the world. They don’t want gold trading in oil be implemented because there is really an obvious answer to it, US HAS NO MORE GOLD!

  • Eureka

    If you can not physically hold it, throw it away

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